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Thinking Process
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:08 pm 
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I think that creation can be harmfull to peoples thinking

I say this because if people assume God is the only option they will not look into the science of evolution without a open mind

what do you guys think


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:59 pm 
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It really dosent matter if regular people look into evolution. Its a fact, and not something you believe in or do not believe in.

The dangers with Creationism is that it leads people to be ignorant about science and facts, as creationism and facts are pretty much incompatible.

Religion/Creationism may lead you to a dangerous worldview. The bible preaches hate towards homosexuals, which may then lead to christians attacking gays for other reason than them beeing gay.

The bible preaches a lot other dangerous stuff. If one were to follow every rule and command in the bible, youd be a pretty horrible person.

I dont mind christianity at all, however, you have to be able to split myth from truth.

On the other hand, evolution dosent try to teach morality or any such thing. Evolution is the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms. And it neatly explains the diversity of plants and animals.

It says nothing about how it all started, just what happened after it did.


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:32 pm 
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Creation Side
Evolution teach's dangerous things as well. Evolution teaches that people are animals. We should not be surprised when people who are taught evolution start behaving like animals

This could be beacuse if we are an evolved animal where do we get our rights and wrong from ?

Evolution Side
On the other hand even if evolution does teach that we are animals and act so. Animals do not engage in wars, genocide, or slaughter each other over religious, behavioral, or morphological differences, so behaving like animals could be seen as an improvement.


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:30 pm 
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In schools, these days, we look at as many theories and views as possible. Scientific and religious.

In religious studies at school you get to learn most views and they teach in a way to get YOUR mind thinking so that your able to come up with your own view but with encouragement from learning other theories and views.


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:44 am 
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Crazynutsx wrote:
Evolution teaches that people are animals. We should not be surprised when people who are taught evolution start behaving like animals


And just what exactly does it mean for people to behave like animals? That is a very serious question that you need to think about. I'm quite certain what you think it means, having heard it from fundamentalists since my introduction to them circa 1970, though I'm sure that, like much anti-evolution rhetoric, it also dates back to the post-WWI (yes, World War One) anti-evolution movement -- if you don't know your own history, then you need to read up on it; I can upload the notes from a pre-service presentation I did at church, if this forum supports that. That meaning that I'm certain of is that "behaving like animals" means to abandon all civilized conduct and to do any wild thing both imaginable and unimaginable.

But is that really what it means? Wolves are animals, as are the big cats, bears, deer, birds, snakes, fish, butterflies, etc. They all act like animals, don't they? But what kinds of animals? The wolves act like wolves, according to their nature. The big cats as big cats, each according to the nature of their species. The same with the rest of them. Do we expect a wolf to act like a fish? Why not? Because that is not in their nature to do so. Do we expect snakes to act like deer? Same reason why not. Is there any reason to expect animals to act like animals different from themselves? (barring domesticated and mal-imprinted animals) No, of course not!

We are indeed and clearly animals: Animal, Chordata, Mammalia, Primates, Hominidae, Hominini, Homo sapiens sapiens. What else can we expect but to act like animals. What kind of animals? Simple: like Homo sapiens sapiens. We do it all the time. It's human nature after all!

One major aspect of human nature is that we are gregarious. We are social animals. So we learn the rules of our society. And if those rules were to be the fundamentalist teaching that if they realize that they are animals, then they must become bereft of civilized conduct and sentiment, then that is exactly what they will do. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fullfilling_prophecy), even though it is utterly false.

Why hold onto a false and destructive belief like that?


Crazynutsx wrote:
This could be beacuse if we are an evolved animal where do we get our rights and wrong from ?


Huh? You're getting silly again. We're a gregarious species. We live in societies. Hello?

For a society to succeed, its members need to behave in a manner that is conducive to social cohesion. That benefits the society's members as a whole as well as the individual. That would be "right behavior". And to discourage behavior that would disrupt social cohesion or otherwise be detrimental to society and its members; that would be wrong behavior. Do I really need to draw you pictures?

Trust your First Sergeant.

Crazynutsx wrote:
On the other hand even if evolution does teach that we are animals and act so. Animals do not engage in wars, genocide, or slaughter each other over religious, behavioral, or morphological differences, so behaving like animals could be seen as an improvement.


May I recommend Mark Twain to you? His late-life anthology, Letters From the Earth, includes an essay, The Damned Human Race, in which he shows in every way that the Noble Animals are far superior to Man. Above the Animals are the Angels. Below them is Man and below Man is nothing lower ... except the French. And his earlier works are also quite fun, such as Roughing It and Innocents Abroad.

However, it is not true that Man is the only one to make war. Competing chimpanzee tribes have been observed fighting in the wild, as to competing ant colonies. Though you are correct that they don't do it on the same scale as Man, nor for the same social reasons, though they do have their own social reasons.

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I Thessalonians 5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Don Marquis: If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think they'll hate you.


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:30 am 
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Crazynutsx wrote:
I think that creation can be harmfull to peoples thinking

I say this because if people assume God is the only option they will not look into the science of evolution without a open mind

what do you guys think


Not just creationism, but fundamentalism itself. And not just because they would "not look into the science of evolution without[sic] a open mind" (I think you meant "not look into the science of evolution with a open mind"; double negatives may work in Spanish and Russian, but not in English ... and Japanese can get rather algebraic about it, such that two negatives yield a positive. Rather, the problem becomes one of not being able to even see reality.

Once over lunch, a friend from church told me the story of his former life as a fundamentalist and how he escaped it. He would go through every day having to turn a blind eye to everything around him that contradicted his fundamentalist beliefs. Every day he had to work ever harder to keep himself blind from the myriad of daily truths that contradicted his faith. Finally the constant effort of deluding himself every single instant became too much for him. So he took the Matthew 7:40 Test and applied it to Christianity. Yes, there were some good fruits, but there were also a lot of wicked fruits. And Jesus does say that it is impossible for a good bush to yield wicked fruit; there is definitely no compromise there. So he stopped being a Christian. And he has found being "an atheist and thorough humanist" to be so much more spiritually fulfilling. And absolutely no need whatsoever for any kind of self-delusion.

The problem with creationism is their false teachings that their claims must be correct and evolution and an old earth cannot be true, or else Scripture has no meaning and God does not exist:

Henry Morris of the Institute for Creation Research, Biblical Cosmology, page 33 wrote:
No geological difficulties, real or imagined, can be allowed to take precedence over the clear statements and necessary inferences of Scripture.


Henry Morris of the Institute for Creation Research, Science, Scripture, and the Young Earth, page 6 wrote:
The data of geology, in our view, should be interpreted in light of Scripture, rather than distorting Scripture to accommodate current geological philosophy.


Henry Morris, Scientific Creationism, 1974 [1985 2nd ed.], p. 255 wrote:
There seems to be no possible way to avoid the conclusion that if the Bible and Christianity are true at all, the geologic ages must be rejected altogether.


John Morris, What is the Purpose of Creation Ministry, in Institute for Creation Research Back to Genesis Report No. 78, June 1995 wrote:
If evolution is true, then the Bible is not true.


John Morris as reported at the 1986 International Conference on Creationism:
("The 1986 International Conference on Creationism" by Robert Schadewald, Creation/Evolution Newsletter, Volume 6, Number 5, September/October 1986, NCSE, pp 8-14.) wrote:
If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning.


The real problem is that "creation science" claims are contrary-to-fact and the false theology of "creation science" demands that those contrary-to-fact claims be true. The only alternative it offers is nihilistic atheism. And since its claims are contrary-to-fact and teach that if the world is really as it is then God does not exist and the only alternative is nihilistic atheism (a false kind of atheist; hey, surely you couldn't expect them to lie about everything else and then tell you the truth about atheism, now could you?), what else could happen but that as its followers learn the truth then they become nihilistic atheists?

So much suffering they cause. So sadly unnecessary.





PS

There's an odd French or French-Canadian film I saw long ago, Bon Baissers du Bon Dieu, which I unfortunately cannot find on imdb.com. The characters are on a surrealistic odyssey only to find in the end that they are characters in a novel -- one that had horribly poor sales -- and their god is the author -- who loads the unsold books in his skeet catapult and shots them out of the sky -- , whom they confront. The police are chasing them throughout and as they close in, the protagonists shout something back at the police and the lead policeman realizes, "They're nihilists!". A policeman asks him, "What?" and he replies, "Nothing." Maybe it was funnier in French. Look it up.

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I Thessalonians 5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Don Marquis: If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think they'll hate you.


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:26 am 
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thanks i shall look it up :)


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Title correction: Des nouvelles du bon Dieu (1996)
IMDB entry at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116081/ .

It's listed as being French. I had thought possibly Canadian because I had also seen one of the actresses in a French-Canadian film. Anyway, I only mentioned the film because of that one scene about nihilists:
"Ils sont nihilistes!" (spelling?)
"Quoi?"
"Rien."

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Don Marquis: If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think they'll hate you.


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:01 pm 
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thanks my friend


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Re: Thinking Process
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:57 pm 
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It is possible that creationism could be harmful to people's thinking processes, but that too could be a temporary manifestation and part of a larger plan.

The idea of testing what we believe can become more and more prominent with the influence of science, and that seems like a very good thing, but then it is also something fundamentally human. It is similar to the process of trial and error. If our ideas don't work, we'll find out soon enough.

For instance, in studying sacred animals found in the Bible, we find the lion, the ox, and the eagle together:

Revelation 4:7
The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

In my attempt at interpreting this passage, I naturally want to see if it applies to what I have learned in theosophy about the seven races. As the human descends, the animal ascends. During the second race, the living creature on earth we are told is half human and half evolving animal. This passage helps to accentuate the order that is given whereas the first animal, the lion, might be in that place to indicate a 5th race animal, the ox a sixth race animal, and the eagle would be the seventh race animal, which is the result of the human-animal of the sixth race splitting into man and bird (perhaps).

The point I'm trying to make is that from the 5th race to the 6th race, we do not see an upward progression. Rather, the animal appears beaten down by the man being present in the form. The animal becomes more servile and while the mind and form of the lion (presented as king of the jungle) seems superior, more regal and qualified, the ox seems almost retarded by comparison. In fact, in THE SECRET DOCTRINE by Blavatsky, there is even a discussion of what is called "the retardation effect."

When another living thing such as a higher kingdom would be, takes up residence in the same form that the human being is using, we may suffer certain nearly irreplaceable losses, including what seems to us to be mental ability, and this could be part of the reason that people resist so adamantly the plunge into a human-girasas relationship.

If we live with a higher kingdom in our bodies, we aren't relying on our own thought processes. Instead, humans become reliant upon the girasas for much of what their very existence entails, but life could still be wonderful. Just the thought of observing a higher kingdom in action thrills me. If the ox or sixth race human is more ponderous and less self-assertive than a lion or 5th race human, then how would we know? All I'm saying is that, we can enter other phases of our lives that result in benefits perhaps not measurable by ordinary standards. There are so many fascinating plans that humans could be making (as a sixth race). While perhaps at this time in the cycle, we can't actualize our plans, those plans could someday become the basis for our future descent through animals and the plans we have for making a new world.

Also, if you think our mental acuity is hindered by the girasas (or creationism), think how much a descent into animals might cause mental slowing.

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